Charlie Rose Interview
August 2, 1998

bc= our man billy
cr= mr. charlie rose (NOT cherub rock...heh)

CR: I am pleased to have Billy Corgan on this show after a number of years trying to get him here. Welcome to the broadcast.

bc: Thank you, Charlie. (grins, laughs)

cr: (laughs) You know we've been tryin to do this!

bc: What an introduction.

cr: The tour first. You were here Saturday, Saturday and Sunday doing this concert in this tour. Now, you're devoting a lot of this...*all* of this to charity?

bc: Almost all of it. Some of the costs ar so beyond our control, like Radio City taxes on the charts, because it's Radio City, stuff like that.

cr: Why are you doing this?

bc: There's just such a general state of negativity right now and we're just basically tired of it. And in a sense, we're kind of trying to lead some sort of movement towards positivity, and money and compassion in this day and age, they seem to be really novel concepts to put together.

cr: The combination of money with compassion...

bc: *nods* Yeah, I mean money talks in this circumstance. Just the idea of it was not enough. I mean we wanted to put our money where our mouth was and donate a substantial amount of money and actually kind of connect some ?? (i can't read my own scrawl there..hmmm) and kinda force people to look at certain issues, namely, ya know, child kind of issues, abuse and that's our main motivation.

cr: Does your audience for your music care about politics?

bc: I think they have a kind of apathetic interest. I mean I think they know it affects them, but they're so...I can see a direct translation between why people place faith in someone like me because there's a certain purity and integrity in what we're trying to do. And, and as an exact kind of complement of why they don't trust the government, ya know, the president should be a hero, but he's not a hero in their eyes or something, and they start turning to other people. People still have that need to believe in something, somebody.

cr: Is that celebrity worship or something else?

bc: Well, rock n roll, in its purest form is not celebrity worship, but it definitely borders on that alot these days.

cr: What is rock n roll in its purest form?

bc: It's just kinda a corraling of energy....that doesn't really have a, ya know, there's no means to an end. It's just kinda like TNT, just keep pushing the plunger (makes a plunging-kind of motion) --you're not really concerned about what's gonna happen. You're just kinda marshalling all this energy into a space and you just keep blowing it up. It's about cannibalizing and.....that's a tough question.

cr: Mm, yeah. (holds up Adore) This cd, Adore, how's it doing? Doing all right, is it doing as well as you expected, or not so well?

bc: Mmmm...it's doing pretty good, it's doing pretty good.

cr: Not what you'd expected or hoped.

bc: No, NOT what we hoped, no.

cr: Why not?

bc: Well, I think there was a general backlash, against kind of our stance that rock music has reached a finite point and it's time to kinda assess what it means and what it's about and what it's for. It's become so commercial, and certainly the music that we came from, alternative music, which was supposed to be the anti-rock, when that became commercial and a lot of money came into it, it's become very conservative. And so we consider ourselves one of the leading bands and so it's time for us to push the plunger and blow it all up again. I think there's been a kind of knee-jerk reaction, not only cuz we're attempting to change, but also because people are sad that the era has come to a conclusion...(mumbles something like 'so we're being punished for that....')

cr: Define the era that's coming to a conclusion.

bc: Well, there was a-- I would say it started around 1988 and probably went to about 1995, of rawk-alternative bands that re-defined rock n roll when people thought there was nothing left to define in rock n roll. They took something that was supposed to be dead and--

cr: What bands are you including in there?

bc: Uh, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains.....many other worthy bands.

cr: Are they at the same place now, are they all sorta coming to the conclusion that this is coming to an end, in terms of that, that--

bc: *shakes head* No, I can't speak, but in the case of Nirvana...you know, Kurt Cobain killed himself. Pearl Jam made a conscious decision not to play the game of music, so they didn't make videos, didn't tour much...um, Alice in Chains is not really a functioning band right now, Soundgarden's broken up......so the leading lights of that movement have kinda come to the concl-- even if those bands were still going, there's still a lot of copycat bands and things, so it kinda diffuses the initial energy & purity in what was going on.

cr: Did you know Cobain well?

bc: *shakes head* No, not really well.

cr: Did you know him at all?

bc: A little bit, he was a very difficult person to get to know.

cr: Because he was quiet, because he was withdrawn, because he was on dr ugs, because what?

bc: Mm, no, he was just a very intense person. And in my particular case, we were basically rivals, so when you're in your mid-20's and rivals, you don't just necessarily sit down and have a chat over a coke...

cr: Well, but somehow you would see each other certain places, I would think, award ceremonies, things like that...

bc: Oh yeah, yeah. No, I found him at times to be, ya know, a total brat, and other times i found him to be really engaging. But, you know, he like me was a Pisces, and with Pisces you never know what you're gonna get. *smiles*

cr: You believe in that?

bc: Oh yeah, very much.

cr: You do?

bc: *still grinning* oh yeah, very much. I believe in all he signs, ya know, DIVINATION! *makes this god-like lightning thrust* (um, hard to explain, nevermind..*=))

cr: So the fact that you're a Pisces, defines what about you?

bc: *grins* Oh...you wouldn't want to know...

cr: Yeah! I would. I mean the purpose here is to understand you in a way we haven't before. I mean, if I was hosting you in concert, you'd be performing.

bc: *laughing* What was the question, Pisces?

cr: Yeah, I mean if you believe in it so much, what does that tell me about you?

bc: Uh, Pisces is probably the ultimate in duality. I mean, it's like you have two fish swimming in opposite directions.

cr: So for every.....

bc: *nods* Right. Cuz people can say, ya know 'you're such a nice person,' and the next person says 'you're the worst, most horrible person I"ve ever met,' and there's truth in both of them. And you don't have a conflict with them because you are both--

cr: And you recognize both.

bc: Yeah, absolutely.

cr: What else about Pisces?

bc: Very moody, tend to be pretty lazy...*laughs*

cr: Why do you think you made it?

bc: Uh, well, you know, I was just listening to Coach Holtz ...

cr: Interesting guy.

bc: Yeah, I was ready to play football after listening to him. But, um, there's the will....the will to do something...

cr: (to audience) What he's talking about is Lou Holtz was here, taping a segment. It sounds a little bit like what we've all heard before and what people say to motivate you, but there's a truth in it, there's a truth about you, a truth about anybody who's achieved the level of distinction you have.

bc: I mean, self-determination is a big part of it, but you can't do something you CAN'T do.

cr: Right, no matter how much people....ya know you had to have talent.

bc: Yeah, if I wanted to be a 100-meter runner...

cr: Brain surgeon...

bc: Yeah, brain surgeon.....well *smiles* maaaybe brain surgeon...

cr: Well, yeah, I was gonna say, you coulda done that. But 100-meter runner....you wouldn't have the physical...

bc: Right, I couldn't have done it. I couldn't have done it. No matter how many days I practiced, how hard I tried. For whatever reason, I think I found the thing that I'm probably best at.

cr: And what is 'that'?

bc: Um, I think I have strange talents. I think I'm a pretty good songwriter, but I think I have the ability to distance from myself and look at other perspectives. I don't think a lot of artists can do that for themselves, and I"ve been able to kind of roam around in musical territiory where most people would be uncomfortable. I think the other element that's why people connect with me is that I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid of being called whatever you wanna call me. Because emotion, potent emotional territory, is really kinda the last island in rock n roll. That's really unexplored. I think John Lennon kind of hit, when he was a solo artist, hit peaks of confessional, deep material. But no one ever really picked up that mantle and I know why people don't-- you're really opening yourself up to total, I mean when you're opening yourself up like how he opened himself up, you open yourself to every stinging arrow, cuz they're slinging them at you.

cr: Are you prepared to go there?

bc: I already have.

cr: You think you are.

bc: I already have. Not that you have hours (??), but you could read plenty of good stuff and plenty of bad stuff, but there's an emotional connection I've managed to have. And it's part of who I am, to kinda let all this emotion go and kinda transmute it to somethin gpeople understand. I think that's very very powerful.

cr: What most about your childhood shaped you?

bc: Uh........isolation. Isolation. I felt very very isolated and my whole adulthood has been about not being isolated.

cr: Now, being surrounded by...

bc: Nah, I mean I don't have a posse (!! hehe...) or anything, but I've definitely opened my arms to everyone because I'm just lookin for that kinda connection.

cr: Was it loneliness or isolation, or are they the same?

bc: I felt very isolated. Like you should be connected, but you're not, and so it makes you question why you are isolated.

cr: And it's reflected in your music how?

bc: Hmmm...that's a good question. *pauses* I think I have a certain kind of populous attitude. I don't really mind reaching out to people, ya know, it doesn't-- in the world I came from, alternative music, being a populist is very taboo.

cr: Why is that?

bc: It's just not cool. Cuz it's like, they're supposed to come to you. You just kinda set up in a corner, down goes the head, and everyone comes to your altar. I've been very vocal from the very beginning with the band that we were only interested in being a big band. We had no interest in being a mid-size band, or a small band, or an obscure band. So we wanted all that energy about us.

cr: Big band, in terms of attention, in terms of reputation.....?

bc: In terms of energy.

cr: In terms of ink? *slaps magazine off-screen*

bc: Sure, why not.

cr: In other words, you didn't want to be second best, you wanted to be first.

bc: Sure, I mean, being on the cover of Rolling Stone (they show the mcis-era rollin stone cover), winning awards, and playing all these concerts, being on your show, it's all fun. I mean, it's supposed to be fun. I think it's fun.

cr: Did you know Cobain well?

bc: *shakes head* No, not really well.

cr: Did you know him at all?

bc: A little bit, he was a very difficult person to get to know.

cr: Because he was quiet, because he was withdrawn, because he was on drugs, because what?

cr: Well, but somehow you would see each other certain places, I would think, award ceremonies, things like that...

cr: You believe in that?

bc: Oh yeah, very much.

cr: You do?

bc: *still grinning* oh yeah, very much. I believe in all he signs, ya know, DIVINATION! *makes this god-like lightning thrust*

cr: So the fact that you're a Pisces, defines what about you?

bc: *grins* Oh...you wouldn't want to know...

cr: Yeah! I would. I mean the purpose here is to understand you in a way we haven't before. I mean, if I was hosting you in concert, you'd be performing.

bc: *laughing* What was the question, Pisces?

cr: Yeah, I mean if you believe in it so much, what does that tell me about you?

bc: Uh, Pisces is probably the ultimate in duality. I mean, it's like you have two fish swimming in opposite directions.

cr: So for every.....

cr: And you recognize both.

bc: Yeah, absolutely.

cr: What else about Pisces?

bc: Very moody, tend to be pretty lazy...*laughs*

cr: Why do you think you made it?

bc: Uh, well, you know, I was just listening to Coach Holtz

cr: Interesting guy.

bc: Yeah, I was ready to play football after listening to him. But, um, there's the will....the will to do something...

bc: I mean, self-determination is a big part of it, but you can't do something you CAN'T do.

cr: Right, no matter how much people....ya know you had to have talent.

bc: Yeah, if I wanted to be a 100-meter runner...

cr: Brain surgeon...

bc: Yeah, brain surgeon.....well *smiles* maaaybe brain surgeon...

cr: Well, yeah, I was gonna say, you coulda done that. But 100-meter runner....you wouldn't have the physical...

bc: Right, I couldn't have done it. I couldn't have done it. No matter how many days I practiced, how hard I tried. For whatever reason, I think I found the thing that I'm probably best at.

cr: And what is 'that'?

cr: Are you prepared to go there?

bc: I already have.

cr: You think you are.

cr: What most about your childhood shaped you?

bc: Uh........isolation. Isolation. I felt very very isolated and my whole adulthood has been about not being isolated.

cr: Now, being surrounded by...

bc: Nah, I mean I don't have a posse or anything, but I've definitely opened my arms to everyone because I'm just lookin for that kinda connection.

cr: Was it loneliness or isolation, or are they the same?

bc: I felt very isolated. Like you should be connected, but you're not, and so it makes you question why you are isolated.

cr: And it's reflected in your music how?

cr: Why is that?

cr: Big band, in terms of attention, in terms of reputation.....?

bc: In terms of energy.

cr: In terms of ink? *slaps magazine off-screen*

bc: Sure, why not.

cr: In other words, you didn't want to be second best, you wanted to be first.

cr: You once said how the bands of your generation have squandered their oppurtunity. What did they not do? What did you not do?

bc: Well, I use the analogy of being given the keys to the car. Ya know, it's like we have the keys, but instead of driving the car, establishing our corner of the market, our parameters, our sense of what the music bu siness should be, we kinda said 'we don't want em,' and we dropped the keys. And somebody else came along and picked them up. Now bands like us are suffering in an environment more suited to a band that's willing to do whatever, to get wherever. The integrity part of the business is....I akin it to a moment in the late 60's where you have these great, powerful artists, and the great artists overdosed, freaked out, or bands broke up, and so ultimately we had a wave into disco, ya know....and I think that's what happened. And I think if the bands of this generation don't command the attention and redefine the parameters of the business around them, then somebody else is gonna do that, and I really, I wish we wouldn't have to trust other people to do it, but that's what's happening.

cr: Is there a kind of lament here that you're being passed by? Or that you missed your oppurtunity?

bc: No, no, not at all.

cr: Why is it not that if you're saying you think you screwed up your chance for long-term significance?

bc: No, it's not that. I just think, if you look at music history itself, there's very few instances where, like we had, the oppurtunity to change the business and redefine the parameters of what music could be--

cr: And you didn't.

bc: We didn't. I mean, as a unit, we didn't.

cr: As a group, like all of the bands together as a composite.

bc: Right. I mean, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones redefined, i mean before the Beatles, bands didn't write their own songs. I mean, we had a similar oppurtunity to redefine what the music business is about, just like, ya know, baseball players with free agency. We had a chance to control, to have more say, more interest in what actually goes on within the music business, so that future bands couldn't be exploited the same ways we were exploited, ya know, really get into the hardcore aspect of what really goes on in the music business. But in order to do that, you have to be in a commanding position. We had two or three years there and we just didn't take it.

cr: I don't wanna get too far along, roll first tape, we're gonna show here the Smashing Pumpkins in a music video.

*show part of 'ava adore' vid.*

cr: Someone listening to this for the first time, who may've been watching my show for a long time, and not be familiar with you, they would notice the quality of your voice, where did that come from? The nature of your voice?

bc: *softly laughs* I dunno...

cr: Is it created, or--

bc: No.

cr: That's your natural voice.

bc: My father's voice was actually higher than mine, my father's a singer too. It's just you can hear it, sitting here talking, I have almost no bass in my voice.

cr: Wow, none, huh? Why?

bc: *shrugs* Dunno, it's a freak of nature thing.

cr: *laughs*

bc: Joel Schumacher, the director of 'Batman,' told me anatomy is destiny, so in that sense...

cr: So did destiny become a singer?

bc: No....well, when I was 18 and started singing, I tried to sing like my idols and failed miserably. So you're left with only one choice *grins* in my case.

cr: In the end, that's what creativity's about, isn't it? Finding your uniqueness?

bc: Well, accepting your limitations.

*both laugh*

bc: Right.

cr: Tell me about 'Adore.' What are you trying to say here and how much of this is a taking off for you, in terms of a personal statement? Maybe including some of the things we just talked about.

bc: Right. Well, we always kinda, in the back of our heads, if we ever had the kinda success that people only dream of, would we, in essence, cave in to what people expect of us when you have big success, which is to continue doing what we're supposed to be doing? So, we found ourselves at the doorstep and we did completely the oppostie. We broke completely from our past as much as one could, and made an album that we think is a bold step in a new direction, a direction that no one's really gone in yet. Because in our minds, it's got to do with continuity, what we're attempting to do in the long run, which is influence and be progressive and stay on very much the cutting edge of music. It's strange, because we find ourselves in the position we were in seven years ago, when people were saying 'you guys are crazy, you don't know what you're doing,' which is what was said about our first album, so we've gone completely full-circle.

cr: Well, I mean, that'll keep you alive, keep you awake, won't it?

bc: Yeah, that's what we're...(mumbles)

*both laugh*

cr: There's also some very touching things-- a song about your mom, 'To Martha.' Your mother, who passed away this last year, yes?

bc: Mm hmm, yes.

cr: And other things that are personal.

bc: Well, yeah, but I just consider those touchstones for much bigger subjects. Umm.

cr: Like death, like memory, like?

bc: Yeah. I think like people have tried to put this album in context of my mother passing away, our former drummer leaving the band, my divorce, but I think you can look at loss, and see the cup's half-empty, or you can look at loss and see someone who's decided to live and take the memories they have and empower them to, to move on.

cr: That's you?

bc: Yeah, that's me, absolutely. I mean, three years ago I was a total mess, I was a total mess.

cr: In what way?

bc: I wasn't a happy person inside. I mean, the person that made the most successful album of my life was not a happy person inside. I'm a happerson now because at some point, when someone close to you, and my mother was very close to me, passes away and passes away early, you go 'well, you know, do I really care what this magazine says about me or do I care about fulfilling happiness in my life?' I looked at those things and I learned those lessons, because I feel that's the greatest respects I can pay for my mother is to take her courage in dying, and the fact that she lived her life the way she wanted, and use that strength and enery to do what I want to do in my life and not get caught up in the cycle of you've got to keep feeding some machine, because it's behind some Wizard of Oz curtain.

cr: I have two thoughts about this-- one is it's interesting to see someone, if they're honest and legitimately asking questions, as we've done, how have we done, where have we gone, have we missed oppurtunities, what's this about, and how do I take this somewhere else? You don't want to use a phrase like 'pushing the edge of the envelope,' but in part it is in a sense finding out how do I stretch my potential, in terms of resonating with my fans, and you're doing a lot of that.

bc: *holds up one index finger* And with a smile!

cr: And with a smile....yeah, how long can you do this, rock n roll?

bc: My guess would be the crzy kind of high saturation level, maybe four or five more years, it's...to be an artist like this in the late 90's, it's soul-scarring. I mean, you just can't do it, you can't do it. It's just too crazy. And ya know, I've had disputes with magazines and stuff, and what I've tried to tell them on a bigger level is, ya know, ther has to be heroes. It doesn't have to be me, but there has to be heroes. And in this culture right now, there are no heroes. I mean (*sound comes back*) mythology will tell you, we have to have heroes and villains. But if we only have villains, we're missing a lot of heroes. And there are heroes out there, I meet them all the time.

cr: Mm, well said.

*billy does this deep nod, tipping his head*

cr: Thank you, Billy.

bc: Thanks, Charlie.

cr: Billy Corgan, songwriter, singer of the Smashing Pumpkins, new album 'Adore.'

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